[App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused

[Mike M]

Oh, hmm, I think I see what you are saying. I knew it was going to be
something stupid.

The problem here isn't the URI, software, or the radio. It's that I
disconnected PTT to the radio for testing.  I failed to realize, which
you just pointed out, that if the PTT is asserted, and actually
connected to the radio, the radio's COR line will drop and will not
return until the PTT is released.  Basically all this time I've been
testing a scenario that will never happen (COR asserted from radio
while PTT is asserted from URI).

Man I feel dumb.  Very sorry for taking up peoples time and the list
bandwidth and a very big thank you to all that helped.

-Mike




On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Mike M <kf7mbk at w7ara.net> wrote:
>> Your node is set up for duplex=1 (half duplex with courtesy beep and tail) right?
>
> Correct, in both conf files.
>
>> And the problem you are seeing is the node will not receive a signal when it is transmitting the courtesy beep or tail - right?
>
> While true, this isn't the actual problem.
>
> I drew a diagram which will hopefully be worth 1000 words.
> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q3CmjOEBsMA/VCg72OZCNbI/AAAAAAAAPSc/wCZoJYknoLU/s822/COR%2520problem.png
>
> Though I just realized, I may have the order of the silence and the
> tone backwards.  Regardless, it is not the important issue.
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> From: REDBUTTON_CTRL <jrorke at cogeco.ca>
> To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
> Cc:
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 12:11:19 -0400
> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
> Ok In a bid to understand what it is you think is wrong let me clarify
> from what you are saying below.
> Your node is set up for duplex=1 (half duplex with courtesy beep and
> tail) right?
> And the problem you are seeing is the node will not receive a signal
> when it is transmitting the courtesy beep or tail - right?
>
> If the above is correct, then this configuration cannot receive a
> signal while it is transmitting. This is normal for this
> configuration.
> If your radio is portable or mobile radio, then your radio can only
> receive  or transmit but not both simultaneously.  So in duplex =1
> mode the URI assumes your receiver is active if the node isnt
> transmitting. So the node ignores all receiver activity while its
> transmitting. Once the tail is gone then it will listen to thereceiver
> cor line.
>
> For some reason from you explanation below you are expecting the node
> to receive in full duplex. Unless the radio you have connected is
> capable of full duplex, this wont work. If the radio connected to the
> URI is a pair of radios or a duplexed base station and if you set the
> duplex setting to duplex=2  in rpt conf and duplex =1 in usbradio then
> it will receive while its transmitting.
>
> Hope I  understand this right and this helps.
>
> Jon VA3RQ
>
> On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Mike M <kf7mbk at w7ara.net> wrote:
>> I'm starting to think its the URI.
>>
>> First, I got rid of all the components (transistor and RC) because they made
>> little difference and don't want the added complexity.  I went back to
>> usbinvert.
>> I brought the radio and URI to the 1620 node on the VM (basically a stock
>> install of ACID) and connected Zoiper directly to the node.  This left the
>> BBB and its configuration completely out of the loop and I still got the
>> same behavior.
>>
>> Next I reconnected the URI and radio to the BBB and connected directly to it
>> via Zioper (I didn't do this before because I was having trouble connecting
>> Zoiper to the BBB, but I got that figured out) and it's still the same
>> behavior.
>>
>> And just to eliminate the radio, I disconnected it completely, connected the
>> COR input to a pullup, and grounded it by hand.  When I ground the COR line
>> (usbinvert), I can hear slight background noise through Zoiper and when I
>> unground it, the courtesy tone is triggered (URI PTT active as well) and
>> then the background noise goes away when the CT is done.  But if I ground
>> the COR line while the courtesy tone is playing, it ignores the COR and does
>> not pass audio to zioper until I cycle the COR line again.
>>
>> And finally I tried using the CTCSS input, same exact behavior.
>>
>> I know there is a URI test program from DMK, but I didn't really see a way
>> to simply read out the status of the inputs, just automated tests requiring
>> a loopback.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:47 PM, Doug Crompton <doug at crompton.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The ctcss and carrier from are just bits so technically you could use
>>> either one and it would work the same. You do need to set the one you are
>>> not using to none. We always use carrierfrom even though it is ctcss that is
>>> driving it.
>>>
>>> I tried what you are doing here. I listened to myself iaxrpt from a
>>> distant node. Then I key the local PTT on my handheld into my local node. I
>>> immediately unkey and then keyed again before I heard the courtesy tone and
>>> it worked fine. Tried it several times.
>>>
>>> Why don't you eliminate the 1620 node in the test and iaxrpt directly to
>>> 1998 to see what happens there.
>>>
>>> This is acting like what you would see with an rxdelay setting but it
>>> should be 0 by default unless you somehow got that into your config.
>>> Specifically say   rxdelay=0  in the 1998 rpt.conf context to be sure.
>>>
>>> 73 Doug
>>> WA3DSP
>>> http://www.crompton.com/hamradio
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: kf7mbk at w7ara.net
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 21:15:03 -0700
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
>>> To: doug at crompton.com
>>> CC: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>>
>>> Doug, this behavior happens even if I manually toggle the COR independent
>>> of the radio and audio so unless I'm not understanding, I can't see this
>>> being the radio.
>>>
>>> I tried changing unkeywait  to 1000 but made no difference other than
>>> extending the time the PTT is active for the courtesy tone, and thus
>>> extending the window in which the COR line going high will be ignored.
>>> Seems that anything that extends the time that the PTT is active for the
>>> courtesy tone also extends the time that the COR is ignored.
>>>
>>> Just to make sure I'm not doing anything stupid or have an unconventional
>>> setuo,. my test setup is:
>>>
>>> HT -> DMK URI -> BBB (node 1998) -> ethernet -> Allstar on a VM (node
>>> 1620) -> IAX -> Zioper soft phone on laptop
>>>
>>> HT has audio in/out connected to the URI.  PTT from the URI is not
>>> connected to the HT while testing.  Signal from receive LED on the HT goes
>>> to COR URI input.
>>>
>>> I have the HT tuned to the weather frequency and I'm making/breaking the
>>> antenna connection to simulate picket fencing and I'm monitoring the audio
>>> received by the URI/BBB on the softphone.
>>>
>>> Bottom line is if the COR line drops, the courtesy pause and tone is
>>> instantly triggered, triggering the URI PTT. This works.  But, if while the
>>> PTT is active, the COR line goes high again, the audio through the URI is
>>> not routed through until the COR line goes low* and high again after the
>>> PTT/courtesy tone is done transmitting.
>>>
>>> * when going low after getting ignored going high, no courtesy tone is
>>> triggered.
>>>
>>>
>>> Would it be useful/appropriate change carrierfrom to "no" and instead set
>>> ctcssfrom = usb and switch the radio output to the ctcss input on the URI
>>> and see if the problem still exists?
>>>
>>>  Thanks for all the help!
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Doug Crompton <doug at crompton.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>  You can try the changing the courtesy time wait then set back to duplex=1
>>>
>>> The wait-times section
>>> This section allows the wait times for voice responses and other audio
>>> telemetry events to be adjusted. All wait times are in milliseconds.
>>>
>>> telemwait sets the time before sending the general audio telemetry
>>> responses used in the application which are not specifically defined below
>>> idwait sets the time to wait before sending ID audio telemetry
>>> unkeywait sets the amount of time to wait before sending the courtesy
>>> tone. This can be used to ensure breaking stations can get their turn
>>> calltermwait sets the amount of time between an autopatch disconnect and
>>> the audio telemetry message indicating the call has been terminated
>>>
>>> The unkeywait is the one to mess with. It is 400ms on the BBB by default.
>>> Make it longer like 1000 so it spans the dropout period you are seeing.
>>> Experiment with times.
>>>
>>> If that doesn't work I really think you should try a different radio. My
>>> thoughts are that it is some kind of recovery issue with TX.
>>>
>>> 73 Doug
>>> WA3DSP
>>> http://www.crompton.com/hamradio
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: kf7mbk at w7ara.net
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 18:59:26 -0700
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
>>> To: doug at crompton.com
>>> CC: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>>
>>> OK, so I did some more testing.
>>>
>>> I have routed the signal out of the radio to an NPN and switched from
>>> usbinvert to usb as suggested.  This made little difference, but in this
>>> configuration I could make the RC work a little better bridging the
>>> dropouts.  But still would end up not detecting carrier after a quick
>>> dropout even though the COR signal into the dongle was high.
>>>
>>> Duplex = 0 seems to eliminate the problem. Is there a setting to tell it
>>> how long to wait after COR dropped to start transmitting the courtesy tone?
>>> (though I suppose that would defeat the purpose of the duplex=1 setting)
>>> Note that I have the PTT disconnected for testing, so all I see is the red
>>> LED come on as soon as the COR out of the radio drops.
>>>
>>> Actually as I'm typing this and playing with it, I just noticed it appears
>>> if the COR is restored ANY time the PTT is active for the courtesy tone, it
>>> will ignore the COR line until it's dropped and brought back up AFTER the
>>> PTT is done. This behavior seems VERY repeatable, even with a cleanly
>>> restored COR signal,  So it may have nothing to do with quick dropouts and
>>> everything to do with the courtesy tone..
>>>
>>> Are there any settings that control this?
>>>
>>> The LED on the radio (and hence my COR input)  is controlled by noise
>>> squelch opening.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Doug Crompton <doug at crompton.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>  Are you using PL or noise squelch or both? Like I said I have not seen
>>> this problem and I am using basically stock timing. Every time the PL or
>>> squelch goes untrue for a certain (short) duration you should hear a
>>> courtesy tone. Perhpas you should try duplex=0 just to see if there is an
>>> issue with TX recovery.  Do you have another radio you can try?
>>>
>>> 73 Doug
>>> WA3DSP
>>> http://www.crompton.com/hamradio
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: kf7mbk at w7ara.net
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:18:19 -0700
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
>>> To: doug at crompton.com
>>> CC: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>>
>>> The scope image in the OP shows there doesn't appear to be a problem with
>>> pulling hi or low,  The transitions (without the RC) are very clean and go
>>> all the way to ground..  It seems like the URI is doing edge detection
>>> instead of level detection, and it's just missing fast edges.  Wasn't sure
>>> if this was something that could be tweaked in software or if I'll have to
>>> put some external debounce logic on the line.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Doug Crompton <doug at crompton.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>  Before you change any timing make sure as Jon pointed out that your COS
>>> signal is going hard high and low on signal and non-signal. You might need a
>>> pullup. The URI is kind of weak in that regard.  It should be TTL levels
>>> <.5 volt low and >2.5 volt high and preferably rail to rail.
>>>
>>>
>>> 73 Doug
>>> WA3DSP
>>> http://www.crompton.com/hamradio
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: kf7mbk at w7ara.net
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:56:21 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
>>> To: doug at crompton.com
>>> CC: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>>
>>>
>>> Doug,
>>>
>>> First: thanks for the excellent writeup on getting allstar running on the
>>> BBB.  I used it to get up and running very quickly and is the setup I am
>>> having this issue with.
>>>
>>> I am running duplex =1 as well.  I have not changed any timing values,
>>> (I'm essentially running the as-installed setup from the install image on
>>> your site) but I will take a look at them and see if I can make some changes
>>> for the better.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> -Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Doug Crompton <doug at crompton.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: doug at crompton.com
>>> To: kf7mbk at w7ara.net
>>> Subject: RE: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:46:14 -0400
>>>
>>> That is very strange. Have you changed any of the default timing values?
>>> Are you using simplex/duplex? Courtesy tone? Timing values could effect
>>> that.
>>>
>>> I use simplex with courtesy tone (duplex=1 in rpt.conf)  on several nodes
>>> and I have never seen that problem. I have one user who has a signal like
>>> you describe. He walks in a park with a handheld and he is often in and out.
>>>
>>> Also I assume you are not using any rxdelay?
>>>
>>> 73 Doug
>>> WA3DSP
>>> http://www.crompton.com/hamradio
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: kf7mbk at w7ara.net
>>> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:50:51 -0700
>>> To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>> Subject: [App_rpt-users] Fwd: COR signal getting confused
>>>
>>>
>>> Resending since my initial post has been pending moderation for 2 days now
>>> and got no reply from the list owner email.
>>>
>>> I have modified an HT to bring out the receive LED signal and use it
>>> as the COR input to a DMK URI. It is a digital signal as viewed on a
>>> scope (i.e. very short slope in the transitions)  This seems like it
>>> would work well and it does on strong signals. But on marginal signals
>>> where the LED may blink on and off quickly (like during picket
>>> fencing), it seems to confuse the URI (or the software) were it will
>>> start off good, but then a quick dropout of the COR signal will cause
>>> the software to no longer detect carrier, even though the signal on
>>> the COR input has been restored.  Even if the input is solid high (or
>>> low in my case, I'm using usbinvert) it will not detect a carrier
>>> until there is another dropout of adequate time to "reset" it.
>>>
>>> I've tried putting a simple RC on the input but it didn't really help
>>> much.  Seems the URI (or software) needs a significant minimum time
>>> between transitions to properly detect them, long enough that it would
>>> delay the carrier detection too much without a circuit more complex
>>> than an RC (i.e. something that would allow instant keyup, but delay
>>> the key down.)
>>>
>>> Linked is a scope image.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CsJ9autUTAE/VCWK-uNJJpI/AAAAAAAAPSM/VsVvbPVvuEA/s800/20140923_184107.jpg
>>>
>>> Carrier was detected until this signal
>>> dropout event.  Ch A is my RC filtered signal sent to the URI, Ch B is
>>> the signal out of the radio.  Carrier was not detected after the 5th
>>> dropout even though the signal remained low.
>>>
>>> Anyone ever experience this and/or have ideas on how to fix it?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> KF7MBK
>>>
>>>
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>>