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<p>I think it is a bit more complicated than that. If you dither the
reference oscillator of a repeater, it will also have an effect on
the demodulated PL/DPL from the receiver. Some half duplex
transceivers indeed apply modulation compensation directly to the
reference oscillators, and others do not, but employ alternative
compensation techniques. <br>
</p>
This from a Quantar Manual<br>
<blockquote>
<div style="left: 380px; top: 344.533px; font-size: 16.6667px;
font-family: sans-serif; transform: scaleX(1.03797);" class="">Modulation
<br>
The active VCO receives an audio/data <span class="highlight
selected">modulation </span>signal from the Station Control
Module via two low-pass filters. This <span class="highlight">modulation
</span>signal modulates the active VCO to produce a modulated
low-level rf carrier signal. <br>
<br>
Low-frequency <span class="highlight">modulation </span>signals
(below the loop filter corner) tend to be interpreted by the PLL
as VCO frequency error. A modulation compensation signal is
added to the PLL <u>control voltage</u> to cancel out this
effect and allow for low frequency modulation.</div>
</blockquote>
The trick I believe, is in the way the PL/DPL is presented to the
station and if the modulation compensation adjustment is sufficient
to track out the PLL's tendency to cancel the low frequency tones.<br>
<br>
Joe Leikhim<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/8/2017 4:33 PM, Bryan Fields
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:497E313D-B351-4A59-ACF7-D3485E6C38E6@bryanfields.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>I've been following this with some interest. One of the
fundamental issues with the PCGM was the master clock going to
the radio was unable to be modulated. This made low frequency
signals (PL) distort, and digital PL was even worse. </div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Typically most radios use two point
modulation, with modulation on the reference oscillator. When
you add an external reference you loose this.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Some base stations are designed to do
two point modulation even on an external clock, the Quantar for
example. This station will even phase lock it's PL and DPL
generation if provided a 1 PPS in addition to a clock.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">If we could inject modulation into
the clock generator simulcast performance would vastly improve.
I'd be interested to see your design to see if this would be a
possibility.</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">Thoughts?</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
<div style="direction: inherit;">--</div>
<div style="direction: inherit;">Bryan Fields</div>
<div style="direction: inherit;">M: +1-727-409-1194</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On May 8, 2017, at 14:15, Reid Brandon <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rfpowerguy@yahoo.com">rfpowerguy@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
font-family:times new roman, new york, times,
serif;font-size:16px">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1494266968989_5136">Hi Joe,</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1494266968989_5135">I got a page
with a pic of a man that rotated around saying DOWNLOAD
NOT FOUND.</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1494266968989_5184">Try again!?</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1494266968989_5186">Tks Reid<br>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1494266968989_5134"><span></span></div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="display: block;" class="yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; font-size: 16px;">
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;
font-size: 16px;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> On Sunday,
May 7, 2017 12:25 PM, Pierre Martel <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:petem001@gmail.com">petem001@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="y_msg_container">
<div id="yiv9395446301">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I am very interrested in all this
project. My email is VE2PF @ VE2MRC dot com!
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>what radio did you used for the project? </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Thanks for sharing!</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Pierre</div>
<div>VE2PF</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv9395446301gmail_extra"><br
clear="none">
<div class="yiv9395446301yqt9077031820"
id="yiv9395446301yqtfd60759">
<div class="yiv9395446301gmail_quote">2017-05-07
12:32 GMT-04:00 Kevin Custer <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:kuggie@kuggie.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:kuggie@kuggie.com">kuggie@kuggie.com</a>></span>:<br
clear="none">
<blockquote
class="yiv9395446301gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Joe,<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Why not consider do it as an article for
Repeater Builder?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks,<br clear="none">
Kevin<span class="yiv9395446301im
yiv9395446301HOEnZb"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 5/7/2017 3:13 AM, Joe Moskalski
wrote:<br clear="none">
</span>
<blockquote
class="yiv9395446301gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I wanted to throw this email out to
the group for all those who want to
simulcast with the RTCM. For those who
don't know, in order to make the RTCM
suitable for simulcast you must have a
more accurate 9.6 MHz clock for the
RTCM in order to ensure the audio
sounds acceptable in the overlap
areas. I did this a few months ago
using 9.6 MHz OCXO's. This worked
reasonably well. Not as well as I
would have liked but the system was
very usable, but of course I wanted it
to be better. Since the PCGM
(Programmable Clock Generation Module)
is no longer available, I decided to
roll my own as some say.<br
clear="none">
I created a PLL circuit that can
accept a 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 100 KHz
reference input and produce a phase
locked 9.6 MHz out for the RTCM. I
have been testing this over the past
few days and it has made an great
improvement in the audio quality in
the overlap. The quality of the audio
in the overlap areas sounds very, very
good, it's very similar to what I
expect to hear in commercial simulcast
systems. My circuit is heavily based
off of an old Motorola MSF5000 HSO PLL
circuit that I was able to adapt and
modify to my needs. There are other
uses for this circuit that make it
attractive for simulcasting but I wont
get into them here. I am will to share
my schematic and bill of materials
(digikey) with anyone. Please send me
an email and I will be willing to
share all of my information on the
project.<br clear="none">
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv9395446301HOEnZb">
<div class="yiv9395446301h5">
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Joe Leikhim
Leikhim and Associates
Communications Consultants
Oviedo, Florida
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:JLeikhim@Leikhim.com">JLeikhim@Leikhim.com</a>
407-982-0446
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://WWW.LEIKHIM.COM">WWW.LEIKHIM.COM</a></pre>
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