You are correct Joe.  The RTCM is a contender though it wouldn't exist or would be useless without Jim's software.  

As Robert mentioned, and his friend is right.  I was warned by a local and very knowledgeable elmer also.  Personally I'm simulcasting but fortunately there is a node smack dab in the middle that "most" users will switch to so they don't hear the issues in the overlap zones.  

I haven't yet cracked the RTCM's open to modify them and I may not ever do it just cause i'm lazy.  It depends on how picky your users are.  That's sort of a loaded question though.  When folks get used to allstar (especially if you're running a high quality codec) and they travel into one of these overlap zones they'll probably complain because they're used to so much more fidelity!  

Does it work without jumping through all the hoops...?  Yes, it's just way more ugly in the areas that have overlapping coverage.  

blah blah...i'm delirious and I still have two more night shifts to go!

73 de K0JSC

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:59 AM, <app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org> wrote:
Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
        app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
        app_rpt-users-owner@ohnosec.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Robert Newberry)
   2. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16 (Joe Leikhim)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:56:57 -0400
From: Robert Newberry <N1XBM@amsat.org>
To: app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org
Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
Message-ID:
        <CAM09xEagKzHhFhw94cqe7oDKWkhr51fdTKt0CuQB2DMz7OH4Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Please don't flame me.

I have a friend who used to work in the paging industry. When I talked to
him about simulcast he was telling me about the paging industry the pains
they went thru. He was saying that they used all of the same transmitters
made around the same time. A signal can go from point A to B in transmitter
a different lengths of time.

He basically told me the same thing, that go do it and enjoy. He just
warned me about PL sync and all of the details to getting it right. He just
said at the end of the day that he was confident I could get it to work,
but probably will not be satisfied with the results.

N1XBM
Apparare Scientor
Paratus Communicare
Allstar Node # 27086, 41540, 41812, 42086, 42658, 42657
www.radioguysrepeaternetwork.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/attachments/20160606/87496c0d/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:59:27 -0400
From: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite@leikhim.com>
To: app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org
Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16
Message-ID: <afeb133c-87cc-0c50-9e8d-5ee854a7fc24@leikhim.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"

There was mention on this board that drift of the 9.6 MHz clock causes
the CTCSS phase to shift. If this is the case, you will have audible
noise and possibly receiver CTCSS drop outs in overlap areas. You will
have distortion of audio frequencies as well.

Whatever solution to the 9.6 MHz clock must be phase coherent between
RTCM nodes .

I have no experience with RTCM, but am quite familiar with commercial
simulcast in the LMR world. I am lurking here because I see the RTCM as
a very affordable contender to the commercial products that exist today.

Joe K4SAT


On 6/6/2016 12:23 PM, Jeff Carrier wrote:
> The RTCM and simulcast DOES work.  As mentioned before, you have to be
> using a transmitter that can accept a 10 mHz (or whatever) reference
> signal.  You also need 1 PPS for your receivers and transmitter.  You
> also need to sync the RTCM to your GPSDO (which I have not done).  If
> you have not done all this you WILL hear some "funk" in the overlap
> areas.
>
> That "funk" can go from usable to un-usable depending on how strong
> the transmitters are in the overlap region.
>
> Pardon the "non-technical" terms.  It does work but the law of physics
> do apply here.
>
> de K0JSC
>
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM, <app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org
> <mailto:app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org>> wrote:
>
>     Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
>     app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>
>     To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>     or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org
>     <mailto:app_rpt-users-request@ohnosec.org>
>
>     You can reach the person managing the list at
>     app_rpt-users-owner@ohnosec.org
>     <mailto:app_rpt-users-owner@ohnosec.org>
>
>     When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>     than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..."
>
>
>     Today's Topics:
>
>        1. Re: audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim) (Steve Wright)
>        2. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Steve Wright)
>        3. Re: audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B (David McGough)
>        4. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski)
>        5. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (David McGough)
>        6. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski)
>
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Message: 1
>     Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:40:50 +1200
>     From: Steve Wright <info@meshnetworks.co.nz
>     <mailto:info@meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>     To: app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim)
>     Message-ID: <57552902.9070008@meshnetworks.co.nz
>     <mailto:57552902.9070008@meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>     On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite@leikhim.com
>     <mailto:rhyolite@leikhim.com>> wrote:
>     > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to
>     "correct" the
>     > modulation, [....]
>
>     Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input.
>
>     S
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 2
>     Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:22:36 +1200
>     From: Steve Wright <info@meshnetworks.co.nz
>     <mailto:info@meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>     To: app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>     Message-ID: <575532CC.2020304@meshnetworks.co.nz
>     <mailto:575532CC.2020304@meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>     On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Joe Moskalski <kc2irv@gmail.com
>     <mailto:kc2irv@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     > I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming
>     months
>
>     Huh?  I was told (on this list) that simulcast TX "doesn't work".
>
>
>
>     S
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 3
>     Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:46:38 -0400 (EDT)
>     From: David McGough <kb4fxc@inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc@inttek.net>>
>     To: app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B
>     Message-ID:
>
>     <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000@goliath.inttek.net
>     <mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000@goliath.inttek.net>>
>     Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>     Hi Steve,
>
>     We're getting way off topic for the mailing list, but, I thought
>     I'd post
>     this reply here if there are any other interested hams out there,
>     perhaps
>     who are also experimenting in this area.
>
>     I haven't played with the Si5351B version of this interesting
>     chip, yet. I
>     wonder whether the voltage control input of this chip would be
>     suitable
>     for AF FM modulation? Assuming that you could modulate the VCXO at
>     audio
>     frequencies (the datasheet isn't completely clear to me about
>     that), an
>     immediate issue would be that everytime you change the fractional-N
>     division ratio, you'll change the modulation index. This will have
>     to be
>     compensated for, one way or another.
>
>     I've been playing with several boards with Si5351 chips. They're
>     pretty
>     neat. They're also pretty noisy! ...With both spurious and phase
>     noise.
>     The phase noise can be improved somewhat with a better external
>     crystal
>     oscillator, the spurs seem more challenging.  Using the on-board
>     VCXO with
>     the 5351B, you can't use a high quality external oscillator, so phase
>     noise and overall frequency stability could be an issue, too.
>
>     Anyhow, for my applications, I'm following the Si5351 with a secondary
>     clean-up VCO/PLL, which was already in the radios. I just needed a
>     frequency-agile reference oscillator, so to speak. I think the
>     Si5351 will
>     work well for this, based on my preliminary tests! (I'd certainly
>     like to
>     hear the experiences from anyone who has already been down this road!)
>
>     I guess you're not finding any local sources of surplus radios?
>     Do you
>     have any 6m power amps available?
>
>
>     73, David KB4FXC
>
>
>
>     On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Steve Wright wrote:
>
>     > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite@leikhim.com
>     <mailto:rhyolite@leikhim.com>> wrote:
>     > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to
>     "correct" the
>     > > modulation, [....]
>     >
>     > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input.
>     >
>     > S
>     >
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 4
>     Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:03:11 -0400
>     From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv@gmail.com <mailto:kc2irv@gmail.com>>
>     To: App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>     Message-ID:
>
>     <CAES28qxB06niu+nL4Y5QfUvgZFf-y8s=uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV+w@mail.gmail.com
>     <mailto:uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV%2Bw@mail.gmail.com>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>     > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly with
>     the RTCM
>     > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>     available to
>     > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>     GPSDO or does
>     > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them myself?
>     >
>     >
>     <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
>     Virus-free.
>     www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>     <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>     <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>     -------------- next part --------------
>     An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>     URL:
>     <http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/attachments/20160606/a36d4626/attachment-0001.html>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 5
>     Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
>     From: David McGough <kb4fxc@inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc@inttek.net>>
>     To: App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>     Message-ID:
>
>     <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606061122550.4196-100000@goliath.inttek.net
>     <mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.1606061122550.4196-100000@goliath.inttek.net>>
>     Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>     Hi Joe,
>
>     While on the subject of the Si5351 chips, the application of
>     converting
>     one reference clock to a secondary frequency is what they were
>     designed
>     for. So, since you've already got a GPS reference, this -might- be an
>     inexpensive starting point...For this application, you obviously won't
>     need all the bells and whistles presented in this article! See:
>
>     http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf
>     <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf>
>     http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus>
>
>     Note that I would replace the Si5351 25MHz reference with a decent
>     TCXO
>     (available on ebay, etc.)....Note that I haven't used the Si5351
>     with an
>     RTCM, there may be simpler/better ways???
>
>
>     73, David KB4FXC
>
>
>
>
>     On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Joe Moskalski wrote:
>
>     > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly
>     with the RTCM
>     > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>     available to
>     > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>     GPSDO or does
>     > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them myself?
>     > >
>     > >
>     >
>     <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
>     > Virus-free.
>     > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>     >
>     <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>     > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>     >
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     Message: 6
>     Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:54:11 -0400
>     From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv@gmail.com <mailto:kc2irv@gmail.com>>
>     To: David McGough <kb4fxc@inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc@inttek.net>>
>     Cc: App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>     Message-ID:
>
>     <CAES28qx-G3wytTXKMRVvzMNm+498_c-aeNB6JrTWmZOR7A7ZcA@mail.gmail.com
>     <mailto:CAES28qx-G3wytTXKMRVvzMNm%2B498_c-aeNB6JrTWmZOR7A7ZcA@mail.gmail.com>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>     I mentioned this to someone else, QRP Labs has a kit that creates
>     a OCXO
>     around the Si5351 chip. here is the link:
>
>     http://www.qrp-labs.com/ocxokit.html
>
>     If you couple this with another kit of theirs you can program it
>     it any
>     frequency you want. My only thought is would it be accurate/stable
>     enough.
>
>     http://www.qrp-labs.com/progrock.html
>
>
>
>     <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
>     Virus-free.
>     www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>     <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>     <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
>     On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 11:36 AM, David McGough <kb4fxc@inttek.net
>     <mailto:kb4fxc@inttek.net>> wrote:
>
>     >
>     > Hi Joe,
>     >
>     > While on the subject of the Si5351 chips, the application of
>     converting
>     > one reference clock to a secondary frequency is what they were
>     designed
>     > for. So, since you've already got a GPS reference, this -might-
>     be an
>     > inexpensive starting point...For this application, you obviously
>     won't
>     > need all the bells and whistles presented in this article! See:
>     >
>     > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf
>     <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf>
>     > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus>
>     >
>     > Note that I would replace the Si5351 25MHz reference with a
>     decent TCXO
>     > (available on ebay, etc.)....Note that I haven't used the Si5351
>     with an
>     > RTCM, there may be simpler/better ways???
>     >
>     >
>     > 73, David KB4FXC
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Joe Moskalski wrote:
>     >
>     > > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly
>     with the
>     > RTCM
>     > > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>     available
>     > to
>     > > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>     GPSDO or
>     > does
>     > > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them
>     myself?
>     > > >
>     > > >
>     > > <
>     >
>     https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>     > >
>     > > Virus-free.
>     > > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>     > > <
>     >
>     https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>     > >
>     > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>     > >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > App_rpt-users mailing list
>     > App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>     >
>     > To unsubscribe from this list please visit
>     > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and
>     scroll down
>     > to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the
>     > "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
>     > You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email
>     > confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a
>     message to
>     > the list detailing the problem.
>     >
>     -------------- next part --------------
>     An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>     URL:
>     <http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/attachments/20160606/a06570ac/attachment.html>
>
>     ------------------------------
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     App_rpt-users mailing list
>     App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org>
>     http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>
>
>     End of App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16
>     *********************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> App_rpt-users mailing list
> App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org
> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the "Unsubscribe or edit options button"
> You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to the list detailing the problem.

--
Joe Leikhim


Leikhim and Associates

Communications Consultants

Oviedo, Florida

JLeikhim@Leikhim.com

407-982-0446

WWW.LEIKHIM.COM

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/attachments/20160606/00c882a2/attachment.html>

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
App_rpt-users mailing list
App_rpt-users@ohnosec.org
http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users


End of App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19
*********************************************