GMRS linked Repeater network using HAMVoIP
Reviewing this thread I need to ask for clarification as it appears some comments are ill informed or are seeding to "stir a pot". *John Heron*: "*Bad news of pirated software*"... cannot find a prior post or comment. What pirated software are you referring? Who is using pirated software and what are they doing that is in violation of any rule? Lastly what rule are they in violation of? *Kirk Just Kirk*: "*GMRS is a shared Channel. Users must monitor before they transmit*". If repeaters are linked then any and all traffic within range of one repeater is heard and transmitted to all others which may be networked. In the event the stations are simplex or low power their is no fault if a repeater user talks and is not able to hear the distant station. Your argument seems you believe GMRS Repeaters are illegal themselves and not simply because they may be networked. Simplex communications is very short distance. Repeater communication itsself could be over a hundred miles even without networking. The FCC allocated eight (8) repeater frequencies and if they are used correctly the unfortunate act of a repeater transmitting over non repeater users is a fault of the user not selecting one of the many other frequencies that are available to them. *John Heron*: "*If its hooked to a telco its illegal*". Is it known that anything GMRS is connected to Telco? If 10 Repeaters are networked and 1 of 10 is connected to telco provided internet I.e. DSL the infraction is on the one (1) offender not the other nine (9) whom are not. Other than inspection of the physical connections how can one review or confirm that telco connections exist? Please point to the rule that defines one offender results in all participants being in violation of a rule? Thanks everyone for your thoughtful and courteous replies. For transparency I own a wide coverage GMRS repeater that is 100% compliant with the FCC rules. It has networking capabilities and Coverage of ~100 miles as it located at 4,000' in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina. -Brad Trogdon W4INT / WQTG303
Has anything been settled with HamVoIP as an attempt to run off with Jim’s work? As of this date I do not believe it has been. In a shared repeater/simplex channel environment, it is always good to be able to monitor the input before keying up a repeater. In a linked system that’s not possible unless you do the BCLO in each repeater. Never saw that work out too well mixed mode. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1749 So if you have an organized group or club engaged in linking GMRS repeaters together and one of them is in violation related to telco, does that mean the collective network is 9/10 legal? John WA4FAP
On Feb 17, 2019, at 4:35 PM, Brad Trogdon <Brad@trogdon.org> wrote:
Reviewing this thread I need to ask for clarification as it appears some comments are ill informed or are seeding to "stir a pot".
John Heron: "Bad news of pirated software"... cannot find a prior post or comment. What pirated software are you referring? Who is using pirated software and what are they doing that is in violation of any rule? Lastly what rule are they in violation of?
Kirk Just Kirk: "GMRS is a shared Channel. Users must monitor before they transmit". If repeaters are linked then any and all traffic within range of one repeater is heard and transmitted to all others which may be networked. In the event the stations are simplex or low power their is no fault if a repeater user talks and is not able to hear the distant station. Your argument seems you believe GMRS Repeaters are illegal themselves and not simply because they may be networked. Simplex communications is very short distance. Repeater communication itsself could be over a hundred miles even without networking. The FCC allocated eight (8) repeater frequencies and if they are used correctly the unfortunate act of a repeater transmitting over non repeater users is a fault of the user not selecting one of the many other frequencies that are available to them.
John Heron: "If its hooked to a telco its illegal". Is it known that anything GMRS is connected to Telco? If 10 Repeaters are networked and 1 of 10 is connected to telco provided internet I.e. DSL the infraction is on the one (1) offender not the other nine (9) whom are not. Other than inspection of the physical connections how can one review or confirm that telco connections exist? Please point to the rule that defines one offender results in all participants being in violation of a rule?
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful and courteous replies.
For transparency I own a wide coverage GMRS repeater that is 100% compliant with the FCC rules. It has networking capabilities and Coverage of ~100 miles as it located at 4,000' in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina.
-Brad Trogdon W4INT / WQTG303
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Thank you for the reply but you provide no answers to my very specific questions. Please see my reply to your questions and comments noted by ">>>" Has anything been settled with HamVoIP as an attempt to run off with Jim’s work? As of this date I do not believe it has been.
What does HamVoIP have to do with the linking of GMRS Repeaters?
In a shared repeater/simplex channel environment, it is always good to be able to monitor the input before keying up a repeater. In a linked system that’s not possible unless you do the BCLO in each repeater. Never saw that work out too well mixed mode.
Not sure you understand how radios work. If a station is strong / close enough to the repeater to be heard then they are otherwise the users of the repeater users will talk over the "Unheard users".
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1749
Cornell is not the authority. Federal Register in its entirety is https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/08/29/2017-17395/personal-rad... . The URL which you provided references " telephone connection is prohibited". What leads you to believe that telephone is connected? In my specific situation Telco is not even connected to the building. So no chance of violation.
So if you have an organized group or club engaged in linking GMRS repeaters together and one of them is in violation related to telco, does that mean the collective network is 9/10 legal?
1. GMRS Repeater linking as an ability or practice is not an "Organized Group". 2. No, the one person is the offender not the others whom are in compliance. Its against the rules to use foul language on radio frequencies. If another station is and you hear it but don't reciprocate does that make you and offender of the rules? No and that logic is silly if you believe true.
Are you questioning your local GMRS folks whom are charging for access (Membership) to their closed system that is using apt_rpt (AllStar)? *www.NorthGeorgiaGMRS.com <http://www.northgeorgiagmrs.com/>* is a single organized group of 30 GMRS Linked repeaters. I'm not a betting person but I would venture to guess that DSL is in the mix.
<<< FCC Correspondence via email on the topic. >>> Case Id: HD0000002998556 Summary: Licensing Requirements Description: There seems to be a lot of confusion as to whether linking the audio of two or more GMRS repeaters via an internet connection is permitted or prohibited under the part 95 rules. Could we please get some sort of clarification as to whether this is a strictly prohibited action per part 95 rules? Thank you. Solution Description: Dear Mr. *******, GMRS stations may not be interconnected to the public switched telephone network as per 95.127. However, proposing to use a VoIP link between the two repeater sites is permissible if the link is considered non-interconnected VoIP. VoIP can either be an interconnected VoIP service or non-interconnected VoIP service, see the definitions below. It is my understanding that if your internet provider is the cable company, it’s fine; but if you have DSL or dial-up internet from the phone company, it isn’t. The second method using RF to link the two repeater sites is allowed so long as the link meets the rules and limitations for fixed stations pursuant to the Part 95 rules. §64.601 (23) Non-interconnected VoIP service. The term “non-interconnected VoIP service”— (i) Means a service that— (A) Enables real-time voice communications that originate from or terminate to the user's location using Internet protocol or any successor protocol; and (B) Requires Internet protocol compatible customer premises equipment; and (ii) Does not include any service that is an interconnected VoIP service. §9.3 Interconnected VoIP service. An interconnected Voice over Internet protocol (VoIP) service is a service that: (1) Enables real-time, two-way voice communications; (2) Requires a broadband connection from the user's location; (3) Requires Internet protocol-compatible customer premises equipment (CPE); and (4) Permits users generally to receive calls that originate on the public switched telephone network and to terminate calls to the public switched telephone network. The rules may be found at the following website: https://www.fcc.gov/general/rules-regulations-title-47 Should you have any further questions, or need additional information, please submit a request through https://esupport.fcc.gov/onlinerequest.htm or call the FCC Licensing Support Center at 1-877-480-3201, selecting option 2 after the main menu. Sincerely, FCC Licensing Support Center
So from what I can understand. you can link them if the method to link is not connected to a pstn line. Now If I am not too crazy, that would mean that a user that have only a dsl line on site could link by RF (using an wifi access point and a wifi client network card ) to by pass the interconnection to the pstn.. So it is very easy to not be connected to a pstn network. The othe part aboit interconnected voip system. It is easy to build a voip system that have no link to any pstn network (allstarlink being one) But it is as easy to connect that voip system to a pstn system. Grey is predominant in that situation. Pierre VE2PF Le lun. 18 févr. 2019 à 12:20, Brad Trogdon <Brad@trogdon.org> a écrit :
Thank you for the reply but you provide no answers to my very specific questions.
Please see my reply to your questions and comments noted by ">>>"
Has anything been settled with HamVoIP as an attempt to run off with Jim’s work? As of this date I do not believe it has been.
What does HamVoIP have to do with the linking of GMRS Repeaters?
In a shared repeater/simplex channel environment, it is always good to be able to monitor the input before keying up a repeater. In a linked system that’s not possible unless you do the BCLO in each repeater. Never saw that work out too well mixed mode.
Not sure you understand how radios work. If a station is strong / close enough to the repeater to be heard then they are otherwise the users of the repeater users will talk over the "Unheard users".
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1749
Cornell is not the authority. Federal Register in its entirety is https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/08/29/2017-17395/personal-rad... . The URL which you provided references " telephone connection is prohibited". What leads you to believe that telephone is connected? In my specific situation Telco is not even connected to the building. So no chance of violation.
So if you have an organized group or club engaged in linking GMRS repeaters together and one of them is in violation related to telco, does that mean the collective network is 9/10 legal?
1. GMRS Repeater linking as an ability or practice is not an "Organized Group". 2. No, the one person is the offender not the others whom are in compliance. Its against the rules to use foul language on radio frequencies. If another station is and you hear it but don't reciprocate does that make you and offender of the rules? No and that logic is silly if you believe true.
Are you questioning your local GMRS folks whom are charging for access (Membership) to their closed system that is using apt_rpt (AllStar)? *www.NorthGeorgiaGMRS.com <http://www.northgeorgiagmrs.com/>* is a single organized group of 30 GMRS Linked repeaters. I'm not a betting person but I would venture to guess that DSL is in the mix.
<<< FCC Correspondence via email on the topic. >>> Case Id: HD0000002998556
Summary: Licensing Requirements
Description: There seems to be a lot of confusion as to whether linking the audio of two or more GMRS repeaters via an internet connection is permitted or prohibited under the part 95 rules.
Could we please get some sort of clarification as to whether this is a strictly prohibited action per part 95 rules?
Thank you.
Solution Description: Dear Mr. *******,
GMRS stations may not be interconnected to the public switched telephone network as per 95.127. However, proposing to use a VoIP link between the two repeater sites is permissible if the link is considered non-interconnected VoIP. VoIP can either be an interconnected VoIP service or non-interconnected VoIP service, see the definitions below. It is my understanding that if your internet provider is the cable company, it’s fine; but if you have DSL or dial-up internet from the phone company, it isn’t.
The second method using RF to link the two repeater sites is allowed so long as the link meets the rules and limitations for fixed stations pursuant to the Part 95 rules.
§64.601
(23) Non-interconnected VoIP service. The term “non-interconnected VoIP service”—
(i) Means a service that—
(A) Enables real-time voice communications that originate from or terminate to the user's location using Internet protocol or any successor protocol; and
(B) Requires Internet protocol compatible customer premises equipment; and
(ii) Does not include any service that is an interconnected VoIP service.
§9.3
Interconnected VoIP service. An interconnected Voice over Internet protocol (VoIP) service is a service that:
(1) Enables real-time, two-way voice communications;
(2) Requires a broadband connection from the user's location;
(3) Requires Internet protocol-compatible customer premises equipment (CPE); and
(4) Permits users generally to receive calls that originate on the public switched telephone network and to terminate calls to the public switched telephone network.
The rules may be found at the following website: https://www.fcc.gov/general/rules-regulations-title-47
Should you have any further questions, or need additional information, please submit a request through https://esupport.fcc.gov/onlinerequest.htm or call the FCC Licensing Support Center at 1-877-480-3201, selecting option 2 after the main menu.
Sincerely,
FCC Licensing Support Center _______________________________________________ App_rpt-users mailing list App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
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John, Brad; 95.1749 is clearly a green light on network connection. 95.1745 appears to be a green light as well. However some folks will twist "may be operated" to be limited to turning the TX on and Off. Funny, I have a ham radio "Operators" license and it allows me to use voice mode. My DMV Operators license allows me to drive a car, I am not limited to turning the engine on and off. Some folks will point to this (below) and say that you can only use the internet to turn on and off the repeater. 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses: (8) Messages which are both conveyed by a wireline control link and transmitted <https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=48a87e5c08caa689a51b8a364e509d5d&term_occur=1&term_src=Title:47:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:95:Subpart:E:95.1733> by a GMRS <https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=49eb3701c003c8a28c21e4846960cca0&term_occur=3&term_src=Title:47:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:95:Subpart:E:95.1733> station;.. This is a remnant of a very old rule dating back to an era where a "Control Operator" was a requirement for a repeater. Just as in Part 97, a positive method of turning off the "station" was required. Automatic control rendered that requirement obsolete. This remnant is a scriveners error. I questioned this during the comment period of the recent NPRM and the FCC chose to shelve it because they had no time to research it. Unfortunately the FCC has been losing a lot of institutional knowledge as to why a rule existed in the first place which is why this remnant exists in the first place. I can cite a similar example from the archives. I am doing some research in my spare time to find where this rule branched from and why. Bottom line; there has NEVER been any NAL or warning issued to any GMRS licensee for linking a GMRS repeater. Linking has been going on in some form or fashion for decades. In the 80's the GMRS systems in Chicago had satellite receivers. They were linked by some method. Search for yourself. None, nada. The rate of FCC Enforcement Bureau activities against GMRS licensees has been minuscule compared to Part 97 and Part 90. Either GMRS licensees are very obedient or the FCC does not have GMRS on a priority. As far as a DSL _miscreant_ on an otherwise compliant GMRS network. If you have 10 or 30 repeaters linked and one of those repeater operators happens to be using DSL, the others are under no obligation to police each other. Do you police every GMRS licensee who uses your repeater as to the Type Certification of their equipment? You might remind them, but you don't have to police that activity. In my opinion 95.1745 and 95.1749 clearly indicate the FCC's intent to permit internet linking. Why else would they have gone to the effort to carve out those exceptions? As far as the HamVoip thing I am very curious as to this whole thing. Is there a possibly a disinterested 3rd party who can explain this all in a separate thread? I am intrigued in how an individual choosing one over the other has personally "pirated" anything. It would seem that that legal argument rests between those distributing the free software not the end user. "Why can't we all get along". - Rodney King On 2/18/2019 9:42 AM, John Heron wrote:
Has anything been settled with HamVoIP as an attempt to run off with Jim’s work? As of this date I do not believe it has been.
In a shared repeater/simplex channel environment, it is always good to be able to monitor the input before keying up a repeater. In a linked system that’s not possible unless you do the BCLO in each repeater. Never saw that work out too well mixed mode.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1749
So if you have an organized group or club engaged in linking GMRS repeaters together and one of them is in violation related to telco, does that mean the collective network is 9/10 legal?
John WA4FAP
On Feb 17, 2019, at 4:35 PM, Brad Trogdon <Brad@trogdon.org <mailto:Brad@trogdon.org>> wrote:
Reviewing this thread I need to ask for clarification as it appears some comments are ill informed or are seeding to "stir a pot".
*John Heron*: "/Bad news of pirated software/"... cannot find a prior post or comment. What pirated software are you referring? Who is using pirated software and what are they doing that is in violation of any rule? Lastly what rule are they in violation of?
*Kirk Just Kirk*: "/GMRS is a shared Channel. Users must monitor before they transmit/". If repeaters are linked then any and all traffic within range of one repeater is heard and transmitted to all others which may be networked. In the event the stations are simplex or low power their is no fault if a repeater user talks and is not able to hear the distant station. Your argument seems you believe GMRS Repeaters are illegal themselves and not simply because they may be networked. Simplex communications is very short distance. Repeater communication itsself could be over a hundred miles even without networking. The FCC allocated eight (8) repeater frequencies and if they are used correctly the unfortunate act of a repeater transmitting over non repeater users is a fault of the user not selecting one of the many other frequencies that are available to them.
*John Heron*: "/If its hooked to a telco its illegal/". Is it known that anything GMRS is connected to Telco? If 10 Repeaters are networked and 1 of 10 is connected to telco provided internet I.e. DSL the infraction is on the one (1) offender not the other nine (9) whom are not. Other than inspection of the physical connections how can one review or confirm that telco connections exist? Please point to the rule that defines one offender results in all participants being in violation of a rule?
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful and courteous replies.
For transparency I own a wide coverage GMRS repeater that is 100% compliant with the FCC rules. It has networking capabilities and Coverage of ~100 miles as it located at 4,000' in the Blue Ridge mountains of North Carolina.
-Brad Trogdon W4INT / WQTG303
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-- Joe Leikhim Leikhim and Associates Communications Consultants Oviedo, Florida JLeikhim@Leikhim.com 407-982-0446 WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
I am not sure that the PSTN or (North America numbering plan) NANP even exist in the regulatory world of the FCC today. A reread of the current rules finds those definitions no longer exist. On 2/18/2019 1:05 PM, Pierre Martel wrote:
So from what I can understand. you can link them if the method to link is not connected to a pstn line. Now If I am not too crazy, that would mean that a user that have only a dsl line on site could link by RF (using an wifi access point and a wifi client network card ) to by pass the interconnection to the pstn.. So it is very easy to not be connected to a pstn network. The othe part aboit interconnected voip system. It is easy to build a voip system that have no link to any pstn network (allstarlink being one) But it is as easy to connect that voip system to a pstn system. Grey is predominant in that situation.
Pierre VE2PF
Le lun. 18 févr. 2019 à 12:20, Brad Trogdon <Brad@trogdon.org <mailto:Brad@trogdon.org>> a écrit :
Thank you for the reply but you provide no answers to my very specific questions.
Please see my reply to your questions and comments noted by ">>>"
Has anything been settled with HamVoIP as an attempt to run off with Jim’s work? As of this date I do not believe it has been. >>> What does HamVoIP have to do with the linking of GMRS Repeaters?
In a shared repeater/simplex channel environment, it is always good to be able to monitor the input before keying up a repeater. In a linked system that’s not possible unless you do the BCLO in each repeater. Never saw that work out too well mixed mode. >>> Not sure you understand how radios work. If a station is strong / close enough to the repeater to be heard then they are otherwise the users of the repeater users will talk over the "Unheard users".
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.1749 >>> Cornell is not the authority. Federal Register in its entirety is https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/08/29/2017-17395/personal-rad... . The URL which you provided references " telephone connection is prohibited". What leads you to believe that telephone is connected? In my specific situation Telco is not even connected to the building. So no chance of violation.
So if you have an organized group or club engaged in linking GMRS repeaters together and one of them is in violation related to telco, does that mean the collective network is 9/10 legal? >>> 1. GMRS Repeater linking as an ability or practice is not an "Organized Group". 2. No, the one person is the offender not the others whom are in compliance. Its against the rules to use foul language on radio frequencies. If another station is and you hear it but don't reciprocate does that make you and offender of the rules? No and that logic is silly if you believe true.
>>> Are you questioning your local GMRS folks whom are charging for access (Membership) to their closed system that is using apt_rpt (AllStar)? *www.NorthGeorgiaGMRS.com <http://www.northgeorgiagmrs.com/>* is a single organized group of 30 GMRS Linked repeaters. I'm not a betting person but I would venture to guess that DSL is in the mix.
<<< FCC Correspondence via email on the topic. >>> Case Id: HD0000002998556
Summary: Licensing Requirements
Description: There seems to be a lot of confusion as to whether linking the audio of two or more GMRS repeaters via an internet connection is permitted or prohibited under the part 95 rules.
Could we please get some sort of clarification as to whether this is a strictly prohibited action per part 95 rules?
Thank you.
Solution Description: Dear Mr. *******,
GMRS stations may not be interconnected to the public switched telephone network as per 95.127. However, proposing to use a VoIP link between the two repeater sites is permissible if the link is considered non-interconnected VoIP. VoIP can either be an interconnected VoIP service or non-interconnected VoIP service, see the definitions below. It is my understanding that if your internet provider is the cable company, it’s fine; but if you have DSL or dial-up internet from the phone company, it isn’t.
The second method using RF to link the two repeater sites is allowed so long as the link meets the rules and limitations for fixed stations pursuant to the Part 95 rules.
§64.601
(23) Non-interconnected VoIP service. The term “non-interconnected VoIP service”—
(i) Means a service that—
(A) Enables real-time voice communications that originate from or terminate to the user's location using Internet protocol or any successor protocol; and
(B) Requires Internet protocol compatible customer premises equipment; and
(ii) Does not include any service that is an interconnected VoIP service.
§9.3
Interconnected VoIP service. An interconnected Voice over Internet protocol (VoIP) service is a service that:
(1) Enables real-time, two-way voice communications;
(2) Requires a broadband connection from the user's location;
(3) Requires Internet protocol-compatible customer premises equipment (CPE); and
(4) Permits users generally to receive calls that originate on the public switched telephone network and to terminate calls to the public switched telephone network.
The rules may be found at the following website:https://www.fcc.gov/general/rules-regulations-title-47
Should you have any further questions, or need additional information, please submit a request throughhttps://esupport.fcc.gov/onlinerequest.htmor call the FCC Licensing Support Center at 1-877-480-3201, selecting option 2 after the main menu.
Sincerely,
FCC Licensing Support Center _______________________________________________ App_rpt-users mailing list App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org <mailto:App_rpt-users@lists.allstarlink.org> http://lists.allstarlink.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
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-- Joe Leikhim Leikhim and Associates Communications Consultants Oviedo, Florida JLeikhim@Leikhim.com 407-982-0446 WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
participants (4)
-
Brad Trogdon -
Joe Leikhim -
John Heron -
Pierre Martel