[App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19
Joe Moskalski
kc2irv at gmail.com
Mon Jun 6 17:52:32 UTC 2016
One method that would improve the simulcast performance without going nuts
designing, troubleshooting and building a completely separate device to
clock the RTCM to the GPSDO would be to replace the the 9.6 Mhz crystal
with a TCXO. There are several available with a square wave 9.6 Mhz output
with an accuracy of .3 ppm. Of course this won't make it perfect but its
minimally invasive, cheap, easy and most importantly.... readily available.
Another question I have is would an external oscillator with a sine wave
output work? If so then there are 9.6 Mhz OCXO's (I found some on ebay)
that would be an even further improvement.
On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Jeff Carrier <k0jsc.jeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> You are correct Joe. The RTCM is a contender though it wouldn't exist or
> would be useless without Jim's software.
>
> As Robert mentioned, and his friend is right. I was warned by a local and
> very knowledgeable elmer also. Personally I'm simulcasting but fortunately
> there is a node smack dab in the middle that "most" users will switch to so
> they don't hear the issues in the overlap zones.
>
> I haven't yet cracked the RTCM's open to modify them and I may not ever do
> it just cause i'm lazy. It depends on how picky your users are. That's
> sort of a loaded question though. When folks get used to allstar
> (especially if you're running a high quality codec) and they travel into
> one of these overlap zones they'll probably complain because they're used
> to so much more fidelity!
>
> Does it work without jumping through all the hoops...? Yes, it's just way
> more ugly in the areas that have overlapping coverage.
>
> blah blah...i'm delirious and I still have two more night shifts to go!
>
> 73 de K0JSC
>
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:59 AM, <app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
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>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Robert Newberry)
>> 2. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16 (Joe Leikhim)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:56:57 -0400
>> From: Robert Newberry <N1XBM at amsat.org>
>> To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAM09xEagKzHhFhw94cqe7oDKWkhr51fdTKt0CuQB2DMz7OH4Gg at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Please don't flame me.
>>
>> I have a friend who used to work in the paging industry. When I talked to
>> him about simulcast he was telling me about the paging industry the pains
>> they went thru. He was saying that they used all of the same transmitters
>> made around the same time. A signal can go from point A to B in
>> transmitter
>> a different lengths of time.
>>
>> He basically told me the same thing, that go do it and enjoy. He just
>> warned me about PL sync and all of the details to getting it right. He
>> just
>> said at the end of the day that he was confident I could get it to work,
>> but probably will not be satisfied with the results.
>>
>> N1XBM
>> Apparare Scientor
>> Paratus Communicare
>> Allstar Node # 27086, 41540, 41812, 42086, 42658, 42657
>> www.radioguysrepeaternetwork.com
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:59:27 -0400
>> From: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com>
>> To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16
>> Message-ID: <afeb133c-87cc-0c50-9e8d-5ee854a7fc24 at leikhim.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> There was mention on this board that drift of the 9.6 MHz clock causes
>> the CTCSS phase to shift. If this is the case, you will have audible
>> noise and possibly receiver CTCSS drop outs in overlap areas. You will
>> have distortion of audio frequencies as well.
>>
>> Whatever solution to the 9.6 MHz clock must be phase coherent between
>> RTCM nodes .
>>
>> I have no experience with RTCM, but am quite familiar with commercial
>> simulcast in the LMR world. I am lurking here because I see the RTCM as
>> a very affordable contender to the commercial products that exist today.
>>
>> Joe K4SAT
>>
>>
>> On 6/6/2016 12:23 PM, Jeff Carrier wrote:
>> > The RTCM and simulcast DOES work. As mentioned before, you have to be
>> > using a transmitter that can accept a 10 mHz (or whatever) reference
>> > signal. You also need 1 PPS for your receivers and transmitter. You
>> > also need to sync the RTCM to your GPSDO (which I have not done). If
>> > you have not done all this you WILL hear some "funk" in the overlap
>> > areas.
>> >
>> > That "funk" can go from usable to un-usable depending on how strong
>> > the transmitters are in the overlap region.
>> >
>> > Pardon the "non-technical" terms. It does work but the law of physics
>> > do apply here.
>> >
>> > de K0JSC
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM, <app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org
>> > <mailto:app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
>> > app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org
>> > <mailto:app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org>
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > app_rpt-users-owner at ohnosec.org
>> > <mailto:app_rpt-users-owner at ohnosec.org>
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim) (Steve Wright)
>> > 2. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Steve Wright)
>> > 3. Re: audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B (David McGough)
>> > 4. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski)
>> > 5. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (David McGough)
>> > 6. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:40:50 +1200
>> > From: Steve Wright <info at meshnetworks.co.nz
>> > <mailto:info at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>> > To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim)
>> > Message-ID: <57552902.9070008 at meshnetworks.co.nz
>> > <mailto:57552902.9070008 at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> >
>> > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com
>> > <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>> > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to
>> > "correct" the
>> > > modulation, [....]
>> >
>> > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input.
>> >
>> > S
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:22:36 +1200
>> > From: Steve Wright <info at meshnetworks.co.nz
>> > <mailto:info at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>> > To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>> > Message-ID: <575532CC.2020304 at meshnetworks.co.nz
>> > <mailto:575532CC.2020304 at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com
>> > <mailto:kc2irv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming
>> > months
>> >
>> > Huh? I was told (on this list) that simulcast TX "doesn't work".
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > S
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:46:38 -0400 (EDT)
>> > From: David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>>
>> > To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> > <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>> > <mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>> >>
>> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Steve,
>> >
>> > We're getting way off topic for the mailing list, but, I thought
>> > I'd post
>> > this reply here if there are any other interested hams out there,
>> > perhaps
>> > who are also experimenting in this area.
>> >
>> > I haven't played with the Si5351B version of this interesting
>> > chip, yet. I
>> > wonder whether the voltage control input of this chip would be
>> > suitable
>> > for AF FM modulation? Assuming that you could modulate the VCXO at
>> > audio
>> > frequencies (the datasheet isn't completely clear to me about
>> > that), an
>> > immediate issue would be that everytime you change the fractional-N
>> > division ratio, you'll change the modulation index. This will have
>> > to be
>> > compensated for, one way or another.
>> >
>> > I've been playing with several boards with Si5351 chips. They're
>> > pretty
>> > neat. They're also pretty noisy! ...With both spurious and phase
>> > noise.
>> > The phase noise can be improved somewhat with a better external
>> > crystal
>> > oscillator, the spurs seem more challenging. Using the on-board
>> > VCXO with
>> > the 5351B, you can't use a high quality external oscillator, so
>> phase
>> > noise and overall frequency stability could be an issue, too.
>> >
>> > Anyhow, for my applications, I'm following the Si5351 with a
>> secondary
>> > clean-up VCO/PLL, which was already in the radios. I just needed a
>> > frequency-agile reference oscillator, so to speak. I think the
>> > Si5351 will
>> > work well for this, based on my preliminary tests! (I'd certainly
>> > like to
>> > hear the experiences from anyone who has already been down this
>> road!)
>> >
>> > I guess you're not finding any local sources of surplus radios?
>> > Do you
>> > have any 6m power amps available?
>> >
>> >
>> > 73, David KB4FXC
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Steve Wright wrote:
>> >
>> > > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com
>> > <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>> > > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to
>> > "correct" the
>> > > > modulation, [....]
>> > >
>> > > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input.
>> > >
>> > > S
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:03:11 -0400
>> > From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com <mailto:kc2irv at gmail.com>>
>> > To: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> > <CAES28qxB06niu+nL4Y5QfUvgZFf-y8s=uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV+w at mail.gmail.com
>> > <mailto:uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV%2Bw at mail.gmail.com>>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly with
>> > the RTCM
>> > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>> > available to
>> > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>> > GPSDO or does
>> > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them myself?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>> >
>> > Virus-free.
>> > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>> >
>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL:
>> > <
>> http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/attachments/20160606/a36d4626/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
>> > From: David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>>
>> > To: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> > <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606061122550.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>> > <mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.1606061122550.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>> >>
>> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Joe,
>> >
>> > While on the subject of the Si5351 chips, the application of
>> > converting
>> > one reference clock to a secondary frequency is what they were
>> > designed
>> > for. So, since you've already got a GPS reference, this -might- be
>> an
>> > inexpensive starting point...For this application, you obviously
>> won't
>> > need all the bells and whistles presented in this article! See:
>> >
>> > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf
>> > <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf>
>> > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus>
>> >
>> > Note that I would replace the Si5351 25MHz reference with a decent
>> > TCXO
>> > (available on ebay, etc.)....Note that I haven't used the Si5351
>> > with an
>> > RTCM, there may be simpler/better ways???
>> >
>> >
>> > 73, David KB4FXC
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Joe Moskalski wrote:
>> >
>> > > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly
>> > with the RTCM
>> > > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>> > available to
>> > > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>> > GPSDO or does
>> > > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them
>> myself?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>> >
>> > > Virus-free.
>> > > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>> > >
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>> >
>> > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 6
>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:54:11 -0400
>> > From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com <mailto:kc2irv at gmail.com>>
>> > To: David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>>
>> > Cc: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>> > Message-ID:
>> >
>> > <CAES28qx-G3wytTXKMRVvzMNm+498_c-aeNB6JrTWmZOR7A7ZcA at mail.gmail.com
>> > <mailto:
>> CAES28qx-G3wytTXKMRVvzMNm%2B498_c-aeNB6JrTWmZOR7A7ZcA at mail.gmail.com>>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > I mentioned this to someone else, QRP Labs has a kit that creates
>> > a OCXO
>> > around the Si5351 chip. here is the link:
>> >
>> > http://www.qrp-labs.com/ocxokit.html
>> >
>> > If you couple this with another kit of theirs you can program it
>> > it any
>> > frequency you want. My only thought is would it be accurate/stable
>> > enough.
>> >
>> > http://www.qrp-labs.com/progrock.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>> >
>> > Virus-free.
>> > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>> > <
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>> >
>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 11:36 AM, David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net
>> > <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Hi Joe,
>> > >
>> > > While on the subject of the Si5351 chips, the application of
>> > converting
>> > > one reference clock to a secondary frequency is what they were
>> > designed
>> > > for. So, since you've already got a GPS reference, this -might-
>> > be an
>> > > inexpensive starting point...For this application, you obviously
>> > won't
>> > > need all the bells and whistles presented in this article! See:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf
>> > <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf>
>> > > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus <
>> http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus>
>> > >
>> > > Note that I would replace the Si5351 25MHz reference with a
>> > decent TCXO
>> > > (available on ebay, etc.)....Note that I haven't used the Si5351
>> > with an
>> > > RTCM, there may be simpler/better ways???
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 73, David KB4FXC
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Joe Moskalski wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly
>> > with the
>> > > RTCM
>> > > > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>> > available
>> > > to
>> > > > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>> > GPSDO or
>> > > does
>> > > > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them
>> > myself?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > <
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>> > > >
>> > > > Virus-free.
>> > > > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>> > > > <
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>> > > >
>> > > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > App_rpt-users mailing list
>> > > App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
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>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> --
>> Joe Leikhim
>>
>>
>> Leikhim and Associates
>>
>> Communications Consultants
>>
>> Oviedo, Florida
>>
>> JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
>>
>> 407-982-0446
>>
>> WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
>>
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