[App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 21
Chris HIll/K7AZ
kilo7alphazulu at verizon.net
Mon Jun 6 18:28:48 UTC 2016
QRP Labs has a programable triple output frequency board that can be GPS sync'd. Look for ProgRock.
73
K7AZ
Sent from my dumb-smart DROID...
app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19 (Joe Moskalski)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 13:52:32 -0400
>From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com>
>To: Jeff Carrier <k0jsc.jeff at gmail.com>
>Cc: app_rpt mailing list <app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19
>Message-ID:
> <CAES28qz5x5vTNKnPH9=1nccA8L=4qnd_6mVHHkcOqLQgyUuBKw at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>One method that would improve the simulcast performance without going nuts
>designing, troubleshooting and building a completely separate device to
>clock the RTCM to the GPSDO would be to replace the the 9.6 Mhz crystal
>with a TCXO. There are several available with a square wave 9.6 Mhz output
>with an accuracy of .3 ppm. Of course this won't make it perfect but its
>minimally invasive, cheap, easy and most importantly.... readily available.
>Another question I have is would an external oscillator with a sine wave
>output work? If so then there are 9.6 Mhz OCXO's (I found some on ebay)
>that would be an even further improvement.
>
>
>On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Jeff Carrier <k0jsc.jeff at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You are correct Joe. The RTCM is a contender though it wouldn't exist or
>> would be useless without Jim's software.
>>
>> As Robert mentioned, and his friend is right. I was warned by a local and
>> very knowledgeable elmer also. Personally I'm simulcasting but fortunately
>> there is a node smack dab in the middle that "most" users will switch to so
>> they don't hear the issues in the overlap zones.
>>
>> I haven't yet cracked the RTCM's open to modify them and I may not ever do
>> it just cause i'm lazy. It depends on how picky your users are. That's
>> sort of a loaded question though. When folks get used to allstar
>> (especially if you're running a high quality codec) and they travel into
>> one of these overlap zones they'll probably complain because they're used
>> to so much more fidelity!
>>
>> Does it work without jumping through all the hoops...? Yes, it's just way
>> more ugly in the areas that have overlapping coverage.
>>
>> blah blah...i'm delirious and I still have two more night shifts to go!
>>
>> 73 de K0JSC
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:59 AM, <app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Robert Newberry)
>>> 2. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16 (Joe Leikhim)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:56:57 -0400
>>> From: Robert Newberry <N1XBM at amsat.org>
>>> To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <
>>> CAM09xEagKzHhFhw94cqe7oDKWkhr51fdTKt0CuQB2DMz7OH4Gg at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Please don't flame me.
>>>
>>> I have a friend who used to work in the paging industry. When I talked to
>>> him about simulcast he was telling me about the paging industry the pains
>>> they went thru. He was saying that they used all of the same transmitters
>>> made around the same time. A signal can go from point A to B in
>>> transmitter
>>> a different lengths of time.
>>>
>>> He basically told me the same thing, that go do it and enjoy. He just
>>> warned me about PL sync and all of the details to getting it right. He
>>> just
>>> said at the end of the day that he was confident I could get it to work,
>>> but probably will not be satisfied with the results.
>>>
>>> N1XBM
>>> Apparare Scientor
>>> Paratus Communicare
>>> Allstar Node # 27086, 41540, 41812, 42086, 42658, 42657
>>> www.radioguysrepeaternetwork.com
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>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:59:27 -0400
>>> From: Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com>
>>> To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16
>>> Message-ID: <afeb133c-87cc-0c50-9e8d-5ee854a7fc24 at leikhim.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"
>>>
>>> There was mention on this board that drift of the 9.6 MHz clock causes
>>> the CTCSS phase to shift. If this is the case, you will have audible
>>> noise and possibly receiver CTCSS drop outs in overlap areas. You will
>>> have distortion of audio frequencies as well.
>>>
>>> Whatever solution to the 9.6 MHz clock must be phase coherent between
>>> RTCM nodes .
>>>
>>> I have no experience with RTCM, but am quite familiar with commercial
>>> simulcast in the LMR world. I am lurking here because I see the RTCM as
>>> a very affordable contender to the commercial products that exist today.
>>>
>>> Joe K4SAT
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/6/2016 12:23 PM, Jeff Carrier wrote:
>>> > The RTCM and simulcast DOES work. As mentioned before, you have to be
>>> > using a transmitter that can accept a 10 mHz (or whatever) reference
>>> > signal. You also need 1 PPS for your receivers and transmitter. You
>>> > also need to sync the RTCM to your GPSDO (which I have not done). If
>>> > you have not done all this you WILL hear some "funk" in the overlap
>>> > areas.
>>> >
>>> > That "funk" can go from usable to un-usable depending on how strong
>>> > the transmitters are in the overlap region.
>>> >
>>> > Pardon the "non-technical" terms. It does work but the law of physics
>>> > do apply here.
>>> >
>>> > de K0JSC
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM, <app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org
>>> > <mailto:app_rpt-users-request at ohnosec.org>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to
>>> > app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
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>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
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>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> > than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Re: audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim) (Steve Wright)
>>> > 2. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Steve Wright)
>>> > 3. Re: audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B (David McGough)
>>> > 4. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski)
>>> > 5. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (David McGough)
>>> > 6. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:40:50 +1200
>>> > From: Steve Wright <info at meshnetworks.co.nz
>>> > <mailto:info at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>>> > To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim)
>>> > Message-ID: <57552902.9070008 at meshnetworks.co.nz
>>> > <mailto:57552902.9070008 at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>> >
>>> > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com
>>> > <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>>> > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to
>>> > "correct" the
>>> > > modulation, [....]
>>> >
>>> > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input.
>>> >
>>> > S
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 2
>>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:22:36 +1200
>>> > From: Steve Wright <info at meshnetworks.co.nz
>>> > <mailto:info at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>>> > To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>>> > Message-ID: <575532CC.2020304 at meshnetworks.co.nz
>>> > <mailto:575532CC.2020304 at meshnetworks.co.nz>>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com
>>> > <mailto:kc2irv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming
>>> > months
>>> >
>>> > Huh? I was told (on this list) that simulcast TX "doesn't work".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > S
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 3
>>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:46:38 -0400 (EDT)
>>> > From: David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>>
>>> > To: app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:app_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >
>>> > <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>>> > <mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>>> >>
>>> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Steve,
>>> >
>>> > We're getting way off topic for the mailing list, but, I thought
>>> > I'd post
>>> > this reply here if there are any other interested hams out there,
>>> > perhaps
>>> > who are also experimenting in this area.
>>> >
>>> > I haven't played with the Si5351B version of this interesting
>>> > chip, yet. I
>>> > wonder whether the voltage control input of this chip would be
>>> > suitable
>>> > for AF FM modulation? Assuming that you could modulate the VCXO at
>>> > audio
>>> > frequencies (the datasheet isn't completely clear to me about
>>> > that), an
>>> > immediate issue would be that everytime you change the fractional-N
>>> > division ratio, you'll change the modulation index. This will have
>>> > to be
>>> > compensated for, one way or another.
>>> >
>>> > I've been playing with several boards with Si5351 chips. They're
>>> > pretty
>>> > neat. They're also pretty noisy! ...With both spurious and phase
>>> > noise.
>>> > The phase noise can be improved somewhat with a better external
>>> > crystal
>>> > oscillator, the spurs seem more challenging. Using the on-board
>>> > VCXO with
>>> > the 5351B, you can't use a high quality external oscillator, so
>>> phase
>>> > noise and overall frequency stability could be an issue, too.
>>> >
>>> > Anyhow, for my applications, I'm following the Si5351 with a
>>> secondary
>>> > clean-up VCO/PLL, which was already in the radios. I just needed a
>>> > frequency-agile reference oscillator, so to speak. I think the
>>> > Si5351 will
>>> > work well for this, based on my preliminary tests! (I'd certainly
>>> > like to
>>> > hear the experiences from anyone who has already been down this
>>> road!)
>>> >
>>> > I guess you're not finding any local sources of surplus radios?
>>> > Do you
>>> > have any 6m power amps available?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 73, David KB4FXC
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Steve Wright wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite at leikhim.com
>>> > <mailto:rhyolite at leikhim.com>> wrote:
>>> > > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to
>>> > "correct" the
>>> > > > modulation, [....]
>>> > >
>>> > > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input.
>>> > >
>>> > > S
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 4
>>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:03:11 -0400
>>> > From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com <mailto:kc2irv at gmail.com>>
>>> > To: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >
>>> > <CAES28qxB06niu+nL4Y5QfUvgZFf-y8s=uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV+w at mail.gmail.com
>>> > <mailto:uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV%2Bw at mail.gmail.com>>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly with
>>> > the RTCM
>>> > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>>> > available to
>>> > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>>> > GPSDO or does
>>> > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them myself?
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > <
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>>> >
>>> > Virus-free.
>>> > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>>> > <
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>>> >
>>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>> > -------------- next part --------------
>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>> > <
>>> http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/attachments/20160606/a36d4626/attachment-0001.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 5
>>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:36:01 -0400 (EDT)
>>> > From: David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>>
>>> > To: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >
>>> > <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606061122550.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>>> > <mailto:Pine.LNX.4.44.1606061122550.4196-100000 at goliath.inttek.net
>>> >>
>>> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Joe,
>>> >
>>> > While on the subject of the Si5351 chips, the application of
>>> > converting
>>> > one reference clock to a secondary frequency is what they were
>>> > designed
>>> > for. So, since you've already got a GPS reference, this -might- be
>>> an
>>> > inexpensive starting point...For this application, you obviously
>>> won't
>>> > need all the bells and whistles presented in this article! See:
>>> >
>>> > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf
>>> > <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf>
>>> > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus>
>>> >
>>> > Note that I would replace the Si5351 25MHz reference with a decent
>>> > TCXO
>>> > (available on ebay, etc.)....Note that I haven't used the Si5351
>>> > with an
>>> > RTCM, there may be simpler/better ways???
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 73, David KB4FXC
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Joe Moskalski wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly
>>> > with the RTCM
>>> > > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>>> > available to
>>> > > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>>> > GPSDO or does
>>> > > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them
>>> myself?
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > <
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>>> >
>>> > > Virus-free.
>>> > > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>>> > >
>>> > <
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>>> >
>>> > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 6
>>> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:54:11 -0400
>>> > From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv at gmail.com <mailto:kc2irv at gmail.com>>
>>> > To: David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>>
>>> > Cc: App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org <mailto:App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >
>>> > <CAES28qx-G3wytTXKMRVvzMNm+498_c-aeNB6JrTWmZOR7A7ZcA at mail.gmail.com
>>> > <mailto:
>>> CAES28qx-G3wytTXKMRVvzMNm%2B498_c-aeNB6JrTWmZOR7A7ZcA at mail.gmail.com>>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > I mentioned this to someone else, QRP Labs has a kit that creates
>>> > a OCXO
>>> > around the Si5351 chip. here is the link:
>>> >
>>> > http://www.qrp-labs.com/ocxokit.html
>>> >
>>> > If you couple this with another kit of theirs you can program it
>>> > it any
>>> > frequency you want. My only thought is would it be accurate/stable
>>> > enough.
>>> >
>>> > http://www.qrp-labs.com/progrock.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > <
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>>> >
>>> > Virus-free.
>>> > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>>> > <
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>>> >
>>> > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 11:36 AM, David McGough <kb4fxc at inttek.net
>>> > <mailto:kb4fxc at inttek.net>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > Hi Joe,
>>> > >
>>> > > While on the subject of the Si5351 chips, the application of
>>> > converting
>>> > > one reference clock to a secondary frequency is what they were
>>> > designed
>>> > > for. So, since you've already got a GPS reference, this -might-
>>> > be an
>>> > > inexpensive starting point...For this application, you obviously
>>> > won't
>>> > > need all the bells and whistles presented in this article! See:
>>> > >
>>> > > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf
>>> > <http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus/Si5351/Si5351_VFO_QEX.pdf>
>>> > > http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus <
>>> http://www.knology.net/%7Egmarcus>
>>> > >
>>> > > Note that I would replace the Si5351 25MHz reference with a
>>> > decent TCXO
>>> > > (available on ebay, etc.)....Note that I haven't used the Si5351
>>> > with an
>>> > > RTCM, there may be simpler/better ways???
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > 73, David KB4FXC
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Joe Moskalski wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly
>>> > with the
>>> > > RTCM
>>> > > > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device
>>> > available
>>> > > to
>>> > > > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the
>>> > GPSDO or
>>> > > does
>>> > > > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them
>>> > myself?
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > <
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Virus-free.
>>> > > > www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com>
>>> > > > <
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link
>>> > > >
>>> > > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > App_rpt-users mailing list
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>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > App_rpt-users mailing list
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>>> > End of App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16
>>> > *********************************************
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > App_rpt-users mailing list
>>> > App_rpt-users at ohnosec.org
>>> > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users
>>> >
>>> > To unsubscribe from this list please visit
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Joe Leikhim
>>>
>>>
>>> Leikhim and Associates
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