June 2016 - App_rpt-users - lists.keekles.org

Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16
by Jeff Carrier 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

The RTCM and simulcast DOES work. As mentioned before, you have to be using a transmitter that can accept a 10 mHz (or whatever) reference signal. You also need 1 PPS for your receivers and transmitter. You also need to sync the RTCM to your GPSDO (which I have not done). If you have not done all this you WILL hear some "funk" in the overlap areas. That "funk" can go from usable to un-usable depending on how strong the transmitters are in the overlap region. Pardon the "non-technical" terms. It does work but the law of physics do apply here. de K0JSC On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM, <app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org> wrote: > Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to > app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > app_rpt-users-owner(a)ohnosec.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim) (Steve Wright) > 2. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Steve Wright) > 3. Re: audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B (David McGough) > 4. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski) > 5. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (David McGough) > 6. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Joe Moskalski) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 19:40:50 +1200 > From: Steve Wright <info(a)meshnetworks.co.nz> > To: app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim) > Message-ID: <57552902.9070008(a)meshnetworks.co.nz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite(a)leikhim.com> wrote: > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to "correct" the > > modulation, [....] > > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input. > > S > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 20:22:36 +1200 > From: Steve Wright <info(a)meshnetworks.co.nz> > To: app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question > Message-ID: <575532CC.2020304(a)meshnetworks.co.nz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Joe Moskalski <kc2irv(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming months > > Huh? I was told (on this list) that simulcast TX "doesn't work". > > > > S > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:46:38 -0400 (EDT) > From: David McGough <kb4fxc(a)inttek.net> > To: app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM: Si5351B > Message-ID: > <Pine.LNX.4.44.1606060946450.4196-100000(a)goliath.inttek.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Hi Steve, > > We're getting way off topic for the mailing list, but, I thought I'd post > this reply here if there are any other interested hams out there, perhaps > who are also experimenting in this area. > > I haven't played with the Si5351B version of this interesting chip, yet. I > wonder whether the voltage control input of this chip would be suitable > for AF FM modulation? Assuming that you could modulate the VCXO at audio > frequencies (the datasheet isn't completely clear to me about that), an > immediate issue would be that everytime you change the fractional-N > division ratio, you'll change the modulation index. This will have to be > compensated for, one way or another. > > I've been playing with several boards with Si5351 chips. They're pretty > neat. They're also pretty noisy! ...With both spurious and phase noise. > The phase noise can be improved somewhat with a better external crystal > oscillator, the spurs seem more challenging. Using the on-board VCXO with > the 5351B, you can't use a high quality external oscillator, so phase > noise and overall frequency stability could be an issue, too. > > Anyhow, for my applications, I'm following the Si5351 with a secondary > clean-up VCO/PLL, which was already in the radios. I just needed a > frequency-agile reference oscillator, so to speak. I think the Si5351 will > work well for this, based on my preliminary tests! (I'd certainly like to > hear the experiences from anyone who has already been down this road!) > > I guess you're not finding any local sources of surplus radios? Do you > have any 6m power amps available? > > > 73, David KB4FXC > > > > On Mon, 6 Jun 2016, Steve Wright wrote: > > > On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite(a)leikhim.com> wrote: > > > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to "correct" the > > > modulation, [....] > > > > Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input. > > > > S > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:03:11 -0400 > From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv(a)gmail.com> > To: App_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question > Message-ID: > <CAES28qxB06niu+nL4Y5QfUvgZFf-y8s= > uZdH2afzxKnwr0HV+w(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly with the RTCM > > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device available to > > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the GPSDO or does > > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them myself? > > > > > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai… > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai… > > > <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >

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Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 21
by Chris HIll/K7AZ 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

QRP Labs has a programable triple output frequency board that can be GPS sync'd. Look for ProgRock. 73 K7AZ Sent from my dumb-smart DROID... app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org wrote: >Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to > app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > app_rpt-users-owner(a)ohnosec.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19 (Joe Moskalski) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 13:52:32 -0400 >From: Joe Moskalski <kc2irv(a)gmail.com> >To: Jeff Carrier <k0jsc.jeff(a)gmail.com> >Cc: app_rpt mailing list <app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org> >Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19 >Message-ID: > <CAES28qz5x5vTNKnPH9=1nccA8L=4qnd_6mVHHkcOqLQgyUuBKw(a)mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >One method that would improve the simulcast performance without going nuts >designing, troubleshooting and building a completely separate device to >clock the RTCM to the GPSDO would be to replace the the 9.6 Mhz crystal >with a TCXO. There are several available with a square wave 9.6 Mhz output >with an accuracy of .3 ppm. Of course this won't make it perfect but its >minimally invasive, cheap, easy and most importantly.... readily available. >Another question I have is would an external oscillator with a sine wave >output work? If so then there are 9.6 Mhz OCXO's (I found some on ebay) >that would be an even further improvement. > > >On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Jeff Carrier <k0jsc.jeff(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> You are correct Joe. The RTCM is a contender though it wouldn't exist or >> would be useless without Jim's software. >> >> As Robert mentioned, and his friend is right. I was warned by a local and >> very knowledgeable elmer also. Personally I'm simulcasting but fortunately >> there is a node smack dab in the middle that "most" users will switch to so >> they don't hear the issues in the overlap zones. >> >> I haven't yet cracked the RTCM's open to modify them and I may not ever do >> it just cause i'm lazy. It depends on how picky your users are. That's >> sort of a loaded question though. When folks get used to allstar >> (especially if you're running a high quality codec) and they travel into >> one of these overlap zones they'll probably complain because they're used >> to so much more fidelity! >> >> Does it work without jumping through all the hoops...? Yes, it's just way >> more ugly in the areas that have overlapping coverage. >> >> blah blah...i'm delirious and I still have two more night shifts to go! >> >> 73 de K0JSC >> >> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:59 AM, <app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to >>> app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> app_rpt-users-owner(a)ohnosec.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Robert Newberry) >>> 2. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16 (Joe Leikhim) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:56:57 -0400 >>> From: Robert Newberry <N1XBM(a)amsat.org> >>> To: app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org >>> Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question >>> Message-ID: >>> < >>> CAM09xEagKzHhFhw94cqe7oDKWkhr51fdTKt0CuQB2DMz7OH4Gg(a)mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Please don't flame me. >>> >>> I have a friend who used to work in the paging industry. When I talked to >>> him about simulcast he was telling me about the paging industry the pains >>> they went thru. He was saying that they used all of the same transmitters >>> made around the same time. A signal can go from point A to B in >>> transmitter >>> a different lengths of time. >>> >>> He basically told me the same thing, that go do it and enjoy. He just >>> warned me about PL sync and all of the details to getting it right. He >>> just >>> said at the end of the day that he was confident I could get it to work, >>> but probably will not be satisfied with the results. >>> >>> N1XBM >>> Apparare Scientor >>> Paratus Communicare >>> Allstar Node # 27086, 41540, 41812, 42086, 42658, 42657 >>> www.radioguysrepeaternetwork.com >>>

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Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
by Joe Moskalski 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

> It seems clear that in order for simulcast to work properly with the RTCM > I will need to clock the CPU to the GPSDO. Is there a device available to > give you the 9.6 mhz reference from the 10 mhz out from the GPSDO or does > anyone have a schematic available so that I can build them myself? > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

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Re: [App_rpt-users] App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 19
by Jeff Carrier 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

You are correct Joe. The RTCM is a contender though it wouldn't exist or would be useless without Jim's software. As Robert mentioned, and his friend is right. I was warned by a local and very knowledgeable elmer also. Personally I'm simulcasting but fortunately there is a node smack dab in the middle that "most" users will switch to so they don't hear the issues in the overlap zones. I haven't yet cracked the RTCM's open to modify them and I may not ever do it just cause i'm lazy. It depends on how picky your users are. That's sort of a loaded question though. When folks get used to allstar (especially if you're running a high quality codec) and they travel into one of these overlap zones they'll probably complain because they're used to so much more fidelity! Does it work without jumping through all the hoops...? Yes, it's just way more ugly in the areas that have overlapping coverage. blah blah...i'm delirious and I still have two more night shifts to go! 73 de K0JSC On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:59 AM, <app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org> wrote: > Send App_rpt-users mailing list submissions to > app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > app_rpt-users-request(a)ohnosec.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > app_rpt-users-owner(a)ohnosec.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of App_rpt-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: RTCM Simulcast question (Robert Newberry) > 2. Re: App_rpt-users Digest, Vol 88, Issue 16 (Joe Leikhim) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 12:56:57 -0400 > From: Robert Newberry <N1XBM(a)amsat.org> > To: app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > Subject: Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question > Message-ID: > < > CAM09xEagKzHhFhw94cqe7oDKWkhr51fdTKt0CuQB2DMz7OH4Gg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Please don't flame me. > > I have a friend who used to work in the paging industry. When I talked to > him about simulcast he was telling me about the paging industry the pains > they went thru. He was saying that they used all of the same transmitters > made around the same time. A signal can go from point A to B in transmitter > a different lengths of time. > > He basically told me the same thing, that go do it and enjoy. He just > warned me about PL sync and all of the details to getting it right. He just > said at the end of the day that he was confident I could get it to work, > but probably will not be satisfied with the results. > > N1XBM > Apparare Scientor > Paratus Communicare > Allstar Node # 27086, 41540, 41812, 42086, 42658, 42657 > www.radioguysrepeaternetwork.com >

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Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
by Robert Newberry 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

Please don't flame me. I have a friend who used to work in the paging industry. When I talked to him about simulcast he was telling me about the paging industry the pains they went thru. He was saying that they used all of the same transmitters made around the same time. A signal can go from point A to B in transmitter a different lengths of time. He basically told me the same thing, that go do it and enjoy. He just warned me about PL sync and all of the details to getting it right. He just said at the end of the day that he was confident I could get it to work, but probably will not be satisfied with the results. N1XBM Apparare Scientor Paratus Communicare Allstar Node # 27086, 41540, 41812, 42086, 42658, 42657 www.radioguysrepeaternetwork.com

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Current signal strength
by Skyler F 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

So I just had this idea to analyze 2 meter band openings, find a weak 162MHz weather station and have a dummy app_rpt node Receive that signal. Using DSP, Then print the current strength to a file, and graph it. Is there any way to get the current signal strength and store it in a bash variable or something? 73 Skyler kd0whb

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Re: [App_rpt-users] audio for direct VCO FM (Joe Leikhim)
by Steve Wright 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

On 04/06/16 04:00, Joe Leikhim <rhyolite(a)leikhim.com> wrote: > Assuming the VCO is part of a PLL, the PLL will tend to "correct" the > modulation, [....] Was planning to use the Si5351B - has VCO input. S

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Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
by Steve Wright 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 6:03 PM, Joe Moskalski <kc2irv(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming months Huh? I was told (on this list) that simulcast TX "doesn't work". S

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RTCM Simulcast question
by Joe Moskalski 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming months and so far I have only one question to ask. The RTCM manual is a little vague on the GPS part of the setup. Normally, with other types of radio simulcast products (which I am very familiar with several) all you need to properly time the audio is a 1 pps signal from the GPS reference. The RTCM manual makes mention of the NMEA/TSIP data being connected but does not explicitly say if that serial data is needed or if only the 1 pps is needed for simulcast operation. From the other simulcast products I have worked with, you set your bulk delay to a value larger then the delay required for the furthest site and the system will adjust. Does the RTCM version of simulcast work the same way? I just want to be sure because this will determine what type of GPS locked reference oscillator I choose for the project. Regards, KC2IRV -Joe <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

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Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question
by Lee Woldanski 06 Jun '16

06 Jun '16

And that is why I leave software to the smart people... :) Thanks Jim! Lee On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Jim Duuuude <telesistant(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > > NO > > ------------------------------ > *From:* app_rpt-users-bounces(a)ohnosec.org < > app_rpt-users-bounces(a)ohnosec.org> on behalf of Lee Woldanski < > ve7fet(a)tparc.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, June 5, 2016 10:22 PM > *To:* Sam Skolfield > *Cc:* app_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org > *Subject:* Re: [App_rpt-users] RTCM Simulcast question > > Just throwing this out there... wouldn't it be possible (trivial?) to > configure the PIC (firmware) for 10MHz external clock, and replace the > 9.6MHz crystal with 10MHz in from a GPSDO? > > > Lee > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Sam Skolfield <kj6qfs(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> From my understanding as well as many others, simulcasting WON'T work >> properly in overlap areas unless you replace the RTCM's internal 9.6MHz >> crystal with a GPSDO 9.6MHz @3.3 volts p-p. If you expect a cheap 9.6MHz >> crystal to derive a 1PPS signal and stabilize it between clock pulses down >> to a level acceptable for accurate syncing of CTCSS generation, free of >> intrinsic jitter, you are "optimistic" to say the least. >> >> Jim Dixon has articulated this before on the email list. Simulcasting >> with the RTCMS in overlap areas WON'T WORK PROPERLY without this trivial >> modification. Obviously this requires usage of IDENTICAL equipment at each >> site. Here is a pointer to an email of his. >> >> >> >> *http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/2013-November/007704.html >> <http://ohnosec.org/pipermail/app_rpt-users/2013-November/007704.html> * >> Jim described a possible future RTCM design with convenient provisions >> for plugging in external 9.6MHz, but this has not happened. >> >> 73 >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Jesse Lloyd <ve7lyd(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> You need both 1 pps and Rx GPS data to the RTCM >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Jesse >>> >>> On Jun 4, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Joe Moskalski <kc2irv(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I will be setting up a 2 site UHF simulcast system in the coming months >>> and so far I have only one question to ask. The RTCM manual is a little >>> vague on the GPS part of the setup. Normally, with other types of radio >>> simulcast products (which I am very familiar with several) all you need to >>> properly time the audio is a 1 pps signal from the GPS reference. The RTCM >>> manual makes mention of the NMEA/TSIP data being connected but does not >>> explicitly say if that serial data is needed or if only the 1 pps is needed >>> for simulcast operation. From the other simulcast products I have worked >>> with, you set your bulk delay to a value larger then the delay required for >>> the furthest site and the system will adjust. Does the RTCM version of >>> simulcast work the same way? I just want to be sure because this will >>> determine what type of GPS locked reference oscillator I choose for the >>> project. >>> >>> Regards, >>> KC2IRV >>> -Joe >>> >>> >>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> Virus-free. >>> www.avast.com >>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai…> >>> <#m_6053416055856271504_m_-3888457977868170799_m_-8328703430711967483_DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> App_rpt-users mailing list >>> App_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list please visit >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll >>> down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the >>> "Unsubscribe or edit options button" >>> You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email >>> confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to >>> the list detailing the problem. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> App_rpt-users mailing list >>> App_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list please visit >>> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll >>> down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the >>> "Unsubscribe or edit options button" >>> You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email >>> confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to >>> the list detailing the problem. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> KJ6QFS >> Sam Skolfield >> >> _______________________________________________ >> App_rpt-users mailing list >> App_rpt-users(a)ohnosec.org >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users >> >> To unsubscribe from this list please visit >> http://ohnosec.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/app_rpt-users and scroll >> down to the bottom of the page. Enter your email address and press the >> "Unsubscribe or edit options button" >> You do not need a password to unsubscribe, you can do it via email >> confirmation. If you have trouble unsubscribing, please send a message to >> the list detailing the problem. >> > > > > -- > Lee Woldanski, AScT > VE7FET > -- Lee Woldanski, AScT VE7FET

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